I would be interested in participating in a discussion in how best to provide business students (likely accounting majors) sufficient timely information to properly consider a tax career. It appears the recruiting process (e.g. for internships), primarily by CPA firms, comes early in a student's academic process usually junior status, often before any tax courses are taken. Therefore, most students being recruited, have only educational exposure to accounting through their course work and defer to a selection of assurance. As an academic (former practitioner) teaching taxation in a business school, my concern is that some changes need to be made in order to provide accounting majors a balanced exposure to all aspects of a career in accounting, including taxation. This change process should be a collaborative effort by academia and potential employers (e.g. CPA firms, industry, government).
Comment
James,
Thanks for taking the time to post your comment. I would hope a discussion on this would take place--any thoughts?
Bruce
In my bachelors degree at Texas A&M University, I was able to take individual taxation before the recruiting season. This made a significant impact on my decision to pursue taxation as my career. I think that it is important that students be introduced to taxation early on in their academic program.
Accounting Careers are Hot at Rank 2 According to College Board
"Hottest Careers for College Graduates: Experts Predict Where the Jobs Will Be in 2018," College Board, December 30, 2010 ---
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/csearch/majors_careers/236.html
Bob Jensen's threads on careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
Question
What's the most fun when you're on the road Tom Selling (even if your not exactly a "tax man")?
Answer Choices
"A Tax Man Takes Account Of His Life CPA Lives Better, Works Less Thanks to Art of Deduction," by Laura Saunders, The Wall Street Journal, April 5, 2011 ---
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703696704576222590253291266.html?mod=WSJ_PersonalFinance_PF4
Jensen Comment
Tom is probably not the best person to ask about this since I don't think he takes his wife on most of his many trips. However, back when I was consulting and/or making presentations all over the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Europe, sometimes New Zealand and Asia I typically took my wife along for our expense-paid and/or tax-deductable holidays ---
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Resume.htm#Presentations
I think I enjoyed these "holidays" more because they were tax deductible or they earned me a profit after expenses. I don't recall many away-from home adventures that were strictly out-of-pocket.
His wife is even for sale and marked down at that!
From The Wall Street Journal Accounting Weekly Review on April 8, 2011
"A Tax Man Takes Account of His Life," by: Laura Saunders, The Wall Street Journal, April 5. 2011 ---
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703696704576222590253291266.html?mod=djem_jiewr_AC_domainid
Bob Jensen's threads on accountancy careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/BookBob1.htm#careers
Question
What's the most fun when you're on the road Tom Selling (even if your not exactly a "tax man")?
Answer Choices
"A Tax Man Takes Account Of His Life CPA Lives Better, Works Less Thanks to Art of Deduction," by Laura Saunders, The Wall Street Journal, April 5, 2011 ---
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703696704576222590253291266.html?mod=WSJ_PersonalFinance_PF4
Jensen Comment
Tom is probably not the best person to ask about this since I don't think he takes his wife on most of his many trips. However, back when I was consulting and/or making presentations all over the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Europe, sometimes New Zealand and Asia I typically took my wife along for our expense-paid and/or tax-deductable holidays ---
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Resume.htm#Presentations
I think I enjoyed these "holidays" more because they were tax deductible or they earned me a profit after expenses. I don't recall many away-from home adventures that were strictly out-of-pocket.
"Say Anything: The Big Four Defense Of Overtime Exemptions," by Francine McKenna, re:TheAuditors, June 20, 2011 ---
http://retheauditors.com/2011/06/20/say-anything-the-big-4-defense-of-overtime-exemptions/
"PricewaterhouseCoopers Headed For A Trial In California Overtime Case." by Francine McKenna, re:TheAuditors, June 17, 2011 ---
http://retheauditors.com/2011/06/17/pricewaterhousecoopers-headed-for-a-trial-in-california-overtime-case/
Jensen Comment
Francine discusses strategies used by large auditing firms to avoid paying overtime, often in conflict with both state laws and auditing standards. CPA firms are not unique in seeking out ways to avoid overtime pay laws. Similar ploys are taken by hospitals and medical clinics paying residents and universities paying adjunct faculty and graduate students.
Bob Jensen's threads on accountancy careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/BookBob1.htm#careers
Question
What goes screaming down the highway with a long tail?
Answer
An ambulance being chased by hundreds of lawyers.
Especially note the chart in the following article
"Tamanaha: The Coming Crunch for Law Schools," by Paul Caron, Tax Prof Blog, June 29, 2011 ---
http://taxprof.typepad.com/
Jensen Comment
It seems as though we're hitting times when there's an oversupply of workers in most every profession or trade, at least those that are legal. And one of the worst excess supply professions will now be the legal profession itself. Can the accounting profession be far behind --- having graduated more accountants in North America than at any other time in history?
The oversupply of law school graduates is especially troublesome since this is where humanities undergraduates typically headed after graduating with degrees in philosophy, history, art, music, English, etc. The other track for humanities graduates is in education, as k-12 schools and colleges facing budget crunches reduce tenure-track opportunities, an abundant supply of teachers is also outstripping demand.
And even the medical professions such as nursing are, for the first time in history, hitting oversupply walls to employment.
What should counselors and parents advise children about careers these days? Even the military won't be a great career option when we pull our fighting men and women back from foreign wars.
"I don't want to be a police officer, firefighter, jet pilot, pro quarterback, or President of the United States. I would rather be a tax accountant."
Parent having a fantasy conversation with their little kid.
"Here’s a Bunch of Cute Kids Explaining Why They Want to Be Tax Accountants," by Caleb Newquist, Going Concern, November 4, 2011 ---
http://goingconcern.com/2011/11/heres-a-bunch-of-cute-kids-explaining-why-they-want-to-be-tax-accountants/#more-51244
Why are these kids given scripts to read?
The answer is that they don't even know what a tax accountant is or does.
Police officers, on the other hand, get to carry real guns, have cars with flashing lights. live on donuts, and never get speeding tickets.
Does anybody under the age of 19-20 really want to become a tax accountant?
The question is why do young people eventually change their minds about becoming accounting majors?
In my opinion, parents are the main source of inspiration, followed by older accounting students who explain why they chose this major.
Accounting teachers in college can also play a huge role if they explain career alternatives in a truthful (no hard sell) manner.
Bob Jensen's threads on what makes young people change their minds to major in accounting?
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
"A Degree of Practical Wisdom:: The Ratio of Educational Debt to Income as a Basic Measurement of Law School Graduates’ Economic Viability," by Jim Chen, SSRN, December 3, 2011 ---
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1967266
Jensen Comment
This type of study, in my viewpoint, has some relevancy for professional schools beyond the bachelors degree. However, I would not recommend this type of analysis for students contemplating where to go after high school. In the first four years, students get much more out of college than career opportunities. There are liberal education quality considerations, greatness of faculty considerations, socialization experiences, dating, dorm living, and intimacy often leading to marriage. Often more expensive schools have more to offer beyond the classroom experience. By the time students are more mature after graduation from college, the importance of some of these "extracurricular" experiences often diminishes.
And if we look at post-graduate law, medicine, engineering, and business schools, the job opportunities and salary expectations are not independent of the halo effect of where the candidate graduated. Diplomas from Harvard and Yale Law Schools add a great deal to salary expectations. And there are huge advantages of being able to network with alumni who often pave the way for job opportunities. What I'm saying is going to a law school having a tuition of $60,000 may well be worth it to graduates who take full advantage of the "extracurricular" opportunities such as networking with alumni. And for all practical purposes you can never be a U.S. Supreme Court justice unless you either graduated from Harvard or Yale law schools or were on the faculty at one of those law schools.
In other words, if you can swing it go to Yale Law school rather than UCON (sorry Amy).
EGADS. I'm a snob.
On December 17, 2011 Jim Martin posted the following on his MAAW Blog ---
http://maaw.blogspot.com/2011/12/careers-with-us-government-department.html
Bob Jensen's threads on accountancy careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
Over 45,000 lawyer jobs in the United States were lost since the 2008 economic meltdown
Should we break out the Champagne? (just kidding)
"Law Firm Recruiting Volumes Inch Up, Making Modest Gains After Recession-Era Declines," NALP, 2012 ---
http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFall2011.pdf
Bob Jensen's threads on careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
Baylor Law School --- http://www.baylor.edu/law/
The Baylor Law Data Dump
Baylor University School of Law Reveals Each Student's Grade Average, LSAT Score, Alma Mater, Race, Ethnicity, and Scholarship Amount
Law School Admission Test (LSAT) --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT
The Baylor Law Data Dump --- http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/the-baylor-law-data-dump-now-with-race-and-scholarships/2/
If you're interested in this data it may be best to download it now. I don't expect this to remain on the Web for long.
"The Law School System Is Broken," National Jurist, February 2012 --- Click Here
http://www.nxtbook.com/splash/nationaljurist/nationaljurist.php?nxturl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nxtbook.com%2Fnxtbooks%2Fcypress%2Fnationaljurist0212%2Findex.php#/18/OnePage
Thank you Paul Caron for the heads up
Turkey Times for Overstuffed Law Schools ---
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/HigherEdControversies.htm#OverstuffedLawSchools
Going Concern's Admittedly Unscientific 2012 Survey of Starting Salaries for New Accounting Graduates ---
http://goingconcern.com/post/recruiting-season-public-accounting-salaries-starting-class-2013
Jensen Comment
Keep in mind that cost of living varies.
When I was still teaching it was somewhat easier to get a Big Four starting job in San Francisco relative to San Antonio. In San Francisco the salary would hardly pay for a one-room apartment without partnering to share the rent. Starting salaries are often not fully adjusted for higher cost-of-living cities.
Also I will mention my oft-repeated advice to college graduates. The amount of starting salary should be a low priority relative to prospective employer training, exposure to clients who are often the way career tracks head after a year or two with a CPA firm, opportunities in areas of interest such as tax or IT, and opportunities for international transfer (e.g., to Asia), and expected travel requirements (tough for expecting parents), and opportunity for work at home (great for expecting parents).
CPA firms do not offer high enough salaries for entry-level auditing and tax to attract graduates from prestigious MBA programs. These firms do not hire many such MBA graduates and when they do hire these graduates at higher salaries it is generally for consulting rather than auditing and tax. CPA firms generally want consultants who have considerable on-the-job training and special skills such as IT and language skills.
Bob Jensen's threads on careers are at
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
"Is Law School Worth It?" by Adam Freedman, Legal Aid, February 22, 2013 ---
http://legallad.quickanddirtytips.com/is-law-school-worth-it.aspx
Bob Jensen's threads on careers ---
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/Bookbob1.htm#careers
From Paul Caron's TaxProf Blog on February 20, 2013 --- http://taxprof.typepad.com/
Jensen Comments
One of the major purposes for publicizing fraudulent placement data was for higher media rankings, especially in the US News rankings of colleges, universities, and programs. Some universities faked like Bucknell University faked the overall university admissions data. Some universities like Tulane faked MBA admissions data. And of course there were quite a few law schools that faked admissions data as well as placements data.
There were also instances of faked or highly misleading placements data.
Bob Jensen's threads on media ranking controversies ---
http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/HigherEdControversies.htm#BusinessSchoolRankings
"Tax Professionals Will Continue To Be in Great Demand for Years," by Frank Byrt, AccountingWeb, March 3, 2013 ---
http://www.accountingweb.com/article/tax-professionals-will-continue-be-great-demand-years/221256?source=education